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RE: (TV) The 20 Longest Live Versions Of The Song 'Marquee Moon'



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6E3iCYQkZM
18 studio minutes and a fade out .....


> From: LeoCasey@comcast.net
> To: tv@obbard.com
> Subject: (TV) The 20 Longest Live Versions Of The Song 'Marquee Moon'
> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 01:03:49 -0500
>
> Part 3 of 4: The 20 Longest Live Versions Of The Song 'Marquee Moon'
>
>
>
> First Some Technical Notes:
>
>
>
> Depending on where exactly the person, who burns a cd-r of a live show,
> breaks it up into separate tracks (i.e., where the 'cue points' are set), a
> track containing a song (e.g., 'Marquee Moon') will usually contain some of
> the band's tuning-up as well as audience's mumblings/cheers both before and
> after the song itself. Often these non-song parts of a track can be quite
> lengthy, e.g., several minutes both before and after the song, making the
> track considerably longer than just the song itself.
>
>
>
> So, in looking at candidates for the longest live versions of 'Marquee
Moon'
> (hereafter referred to as 'M M') one can not go by Carried Away's (CA)
> artwork on track length or by comments by Seeders on DIME, because CA and
> DIME's times are the length of the track and not the length of the just the
> song itself.  E.g., there's a track containing 'M M' on " 'Return Of The
> Valve Heads': June 19, 2002, The Meltdown Festival, Queen Elizabeth Hall,
> South Bank, London, England-BitTorrent/DIME Version And Better Sounding
> Version-DAT ". The 'M M'-track is 17:37.8, but only 13:38.2 is just the
song
> 'M M'; 2:41.6 of the 17:37.8 is cheers and clapping for an encore, and
> 1:17.8 of the 17:37.8 is tuning-up). Thus, in what follows, the lengths of
> just the song 'M M' itself (and not the track length) determine which live
> versions are truly the longest. Most, if not all, of the bootleg recordings
> that follow were, when necessary, originally speed-corrected by Carried
> Away, DIME, or Leo, and the song-lengths given below for 'M M' for these
> same bootlegs reflect any such speed-corrections.
>
>
>
> The method used to determine exactly how long are the lengths of these 20
> Live Versions of 'M M' (as well as 8 different officially-released studio
> Versions) is described in great detail later in Part 4.
>
>
>
> The first longest version, "June 4, 1982, The Ritz, NYC", and the twelfth
> longest version, "July 2, 1978, The Earth Tavern, Portland, Oregon-'The
> BitTorrent/DaD Mix'-Best Sounding Version", are broken-out in considerable
> detail, but the other 12 Verlaine Band Versions have somewhat similar
> characteristics to the June 4, 1982 Version, and the other 6 Television
> Versions have somewhat similar characteristics to the July 2, 1978 Version.
> Television versions are marked with a double asterisk, **.
>
>
>
> The 20 longest versions of 'M M' are:
>
>
>
> 1) "June 4, 1982, The Ritz, NYC", total track-length of 'M M' is 21:24.0,
> but 21:09.7 is just the length of the song 'M M' itself. However, the
> song-length is an even longer 21:17.9 if we include all of the quite
> audible, lingering, and wonderfully long-lasting reverberation/resonance in
> the room (i.e., in the Ritz) at the song's end. This
reverberation/resonance
> begins with the last guitar-crescendo at 21:01.8, and continues for about
16
> sec. until 21:17.9. [Here is the detailed breakdown of the track: 0.0 -
0.2:
> audience's pre-song cheers; at 12:07.9 (i.e., at elapsed time 12:08.1 - 0.2
> pre-song cheers) the beautiful 'bird-like' sounds of the lead guitar begin
> and continue for about 25 sec. until 12:32.8 (i.e., 12:33.0 - 0.2); then at
> 12:32.8 (i.e., 12:33.0 - 0.2) until 13:02.8 (i.e., 13:03.0 - 0.2) is the
> usual, canonical, slow and dramatic guitar build-up; then at 13:02.8 (i.e.,
> 13:03.0 - 0.2) until 13:16.2 (i.e., 13:16.4 - 0.2) is the very fast guitar
> rave-up (but not to be confused with the type of rave-up/crescendo that
> occurs at the very end of the digital, Non-Fades-Out, studio version); then
> from 13:16.2 (i.e., 13:16.4 - 0.2) to 13:19.2 (i.e., 13:19.4 - 0.2) is a
> kind of guitar-trilling by Verlaine added onto the rave-up; then
immediately
> following this guitar-trilling , at 13:19.2 (i.e., 13:19.4 - 0.2) is the
> beginning, unlike either of the studio versions, of a very long [4:55.0],
> jazzy, improvised section of just Tom on guitar (i.e., no other band
> members' instruments) that lasts until 18:14.2 (i.e., until 18:14.4 - 0.2)
> when the song reverts back to the 'regular' 'Marquee Moon' with all of the
> other band members playing; and then shortly thereafter, there occurs the
> vocal verse: 'I remember how the darkness doubled . , etc.'; the song
> concludes like the digital, Non-Fades-Out, studio version with the usual
> 'rave-up'-guitar-ending and final guitar-crescendo, finally concluding with
> a cymbal-flourish, clicks of the drum-sticks, a drum-roll, and then a final
> (the third) click of drum-sticks at 21:09.7 (i.e., at 21:09.9 - 0.2). 1.9
> sec. earlier at the first click of the drum-sticks at 21:07.8 (i.e., at
> 21:08.0 - 0.2), the audience's cheering had started prematurely and
> continued for about another 14.0 sec. until it was truncated by the taper.
> Right before the song's end at 21:09.7 (i.e., at 21:09.9 - 0.2) there is a
> final drum-roll and a second click of the drum-sticks at 21:08.1 and
> 21:08.8, respectively (i.e., at 21:08.3 - 0.2, and 21:09.0 - 0.2,
> respectively). This drum-roll lasts only 0.4 sec. Then the audience's
> cheering continues for another 6.1 sec.]
>
> But again: IF we count the 16.1 sec. of reverberation/resonance in the room
> that occurs after the final click of drum-sticks, then the song-length is:
> 21:17.9
>
>
>
> Note 1: A musician friend of mine who listened to the June 4, 1982, Ritz
> recording of 'M M' wrote to me:  "What you call 'reverberation' sounds to
me
> like 'sustain' in the amp. There is a bit of tremolo perhaps, but he never
> dampens the strings after hitting the last chord and you are hearing for
the
> last 16 sec. or so is just the 'sustain' from the amp. There is probably
> some effects in there, some reverb/tremolo perhaps - I can't recognize the
> exact effect.  If you know what pedals he uses normally, you might be able
> to figure it out.".
>
>
>
> Note 2:  Keith wrote on CA: "This is a compilation, 'Pull Down The Future',
> my ultimate Verlaine show, if you like ... consists of shows between 1981
> and 2001. I chose the tracks because of things I liked in the performances,
> rather than because they had the best sound quality, so the sound is
> variable ... it does, however, have what I feel is the greatest live
version
> of 'Marquee Moon', the 20-minute one from The Ritz, on June 4, 1982, NYC.".
>
>
>
> 2) "April 22, 1987, The Mean Fiddler, Harlesden, London, England", 'M M'
> (20:30.6 just the song). The improvised section lasts until the end of the
> song itself at 20:30.6! (i.e., at 20:30.7 - 0.1). That is to say, the song
> never reverts back to the 'regular' 'M M', and never gets back to the vocal
> verse: 'I remember how the darkness . etc.'; the song does, however, end
> with the 'usual' 'rave-up'-guitar-ending and final guitar-crescendo,
finally
> concluding with a cymbal-flourish and drum-hit at 20:30.6 (i.e., at elapsed
> time 20:30.7 - 0.1 pre-song cheers). The length of the song's long,
'jazzy',
> improvised section of just Tom on guitar = 8:49.5 (the longest ever).
>
>
>
> 3) " 'A Future In Noise': October 11, 1981, Toad's Place, New Haven,
> Connecticut", 'M M' (19:37.6 just the song). The length of the song's long,
> 'jazzy', improvised section of just Tom on guitar = 4:55.7
>
>
>
> 4)** "June 21, 2001, The EMP (Experience Music Project), Seattle,
> Washington"  Steve Rovner on his Phishhook page wrote:  "The recording is
> not good, as the mics were overdriven, thus causing a lot of distortion in
> the recording." Leo agrees that the sound quality is absolutely execrable!
> It is probably the worst sounding Television/Verlaine bootleg in existence,
> which is very sad since it was described by several M M Listers who
attended
> as a great show, and because it contains a 19:21.3 version of 'M M'.
>
>
>
> 5) "May 20, 1987, Yomiuri Hall, Tokyo, Japan", 'M M' (18:40.8 just the
> song). The length of the song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of just
> Tom on guitar was not measured.
>
>
>
> 6) "October 8, 1981, The Ritz, NYC", 'M M' (18:40.6 just the song) [guitar
> sounds very distorted, and TotalRecorder's VU meters are often in the
> dangerously high 'reds'! See Part 4 of 4.] Unfortunately, Leo gives the
> sound quality and microphone position of the above Peter Dougherty
recording
> a grade of D- !  Probably could be fixed with Audacity. The length of the
> song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of just Tom on guitar = 5:03.2.
>
>
>
> 7) "April 17, 1987, The EXO 7, Rouen, France", 'M M' (18:33.9 just the
> song). The length of the song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of just
> Tom on guitar was not measured.
>
>
>
> 8) " 'Because We Like The View': May 27, 1982, The Paradise Rock Club,
> Boston, Massachusetts", 'M M' (17:57.3 just the song). The length of the
> song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of just Tom on guitar = 4:26.6.
>
>
>
>
> 9) "June 5, 1982, The Ritz, NYC", 'M M' (17:14.4 just the song, but it's an
> even longer 17:18.0 if we include the quite audible and lingering
> reverberation/resonance in the room (i.e., in the Ritz) of 3.6 sec.; this
> reverberation/resonance and concurrent audience cheering was truncated by 3
> - 4 sec. by the taper, so the song-length would/should actually have been
> 17:22.0). The length of the song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of
just
> Tom on
>
> guitar = 3:19.8.
>
>
>
> 10) " 'Out At The Junkyard': April 21, 1987, The Lantaren, Rotterdam, The
> Netherlands", 'M M' (17:14.6 just the song).  The length of the song's
long,
> 'jazzy', improvised section of just Tom on guitar was not measured.
>
>
>
> 11) "May 26, 1982, Toad's Place, New Haven, Connecticut", 'M M' (16:55.2
> just the song, truncated/faded-out by about 15 sec.! Should/would be about
> 17:10.0).  The length of the song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of
> just Tom on guitar = 3:49.0.
>
>
>
> 12)** "July 2, 1978, The Earth Tavern, Portland, Oregon-'The BitTorrent/DaD
> Mix'-Best Sounding Version", 'M M' (17:06.7, but 16:44.6 just the song;
> 16:47.4 but it's an even longer 16:47.6 if we include the 2.8 sec. of
> feedback and echo). [Here is a detailed breakdown of the track:  0.0 - 4.4:
> Verlaine says, "This is the last number; it's called 'Marquee Moon'.", one
> person cheers meekly; 9.4 - 9.7: false-start; 9.7 - 17.3: silence; at 17.3
> song begins; at 13:46.8 (i.e., at elapsed time 14:04.1 - 17.3 pre-start)
the
> beautiful and 'bird-like' sounds of the guitar begin. These 'bird-like'
> sounds end after 27.4 sec. with the first of about 8 or 9 separate
> crescendos beginning at 14:14.2 (i.e., at 14:31.5 - 17.3), and these
> multiple crescendos (not to be confused with type of crescendo that occurs
> at the very end of the digital, non-faded-out, studio version) last for
37.6
> sec. until 14:49.8 (i.e., until 15:07.1 - 17.3) when the song reverts back
> to the 'regular' 'M M'; and then shortly thereafter there occurs the vocal
> verse: 'I remember how the darkness doubled . , etc.'; the song ends with
> the usual 'rave-up'-guitar-ending and final guitar-crescendo, finally
> concluding at 16:44.6 (i.e., at 17:01.9 - 17.3) or 16:47.4 (i.e., or
17:04.7
> - 17.3) if we include the 2.8 sec. of feedback and echo; audience cheers
> begin at 16:44.6 (i.e., at 17:01.9 - 17.3, they are slowly faded out and
> last only 5 sec. At Television shows, after the beautiful 'bird-like'
guitar
> sounds (that follow a long series if guitar-crescendos late in the song) 'M
> M' has no long, 'jazzy', improvised section with just Verlaine playing
> guitar. (See Note 3 below for clarification of this potentially confusing
> statement.)
>
>
>
> Note 3: In the summer of 2012, Leo performed a long analysis of Television
> versions of 'M M' that are greater than 15 minutes, for the years 1976 -
> 1978, 1992 - 1993, and 2001 - 2005, plus the only Television show in 2007,
> namely June 16.  (The two Television shows in July 2011 were not checked
> because only one had a complete recording, and it was less than 15 minutes
> long (14:23).)  This analysis showed that unlike most versions of the song
> 'M M' performed by The Tom Verlaine band on his Tours (in 1981 - 1982;
1984;
> 1987; 1996, and 2006), all Television versions of the song (including the
> above Portland show) do not include a long, jazzy, improvised section of
> just Tom playing guitar (with the drums, bass and rhythm guitar playing all
> temporarily suspended).  This improvised section on recordings of his Tours
> usually begins about 45 sec. after the end of the beautiful 'bird-like'
> guitar sounds that follow the song's long series of guitar-crescendos.
>
>
>
> 13) "October 9, 1981, The East Side Club, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania", 'M
M'
> (16:14.0 just the song). The length of the song's long, 'jazzy', improvised
> section of just Tom on guitar = 2:44.5.
>
>
>
> 14)** "June 5, 1977, Auditoire P-E Janson ULB, Brussels, Belgium", 'M M'
> (16:05.8 just the song). There is no long, 'jazzy', improvised section of
'M
> M' at
>
> Television shows.
>
>
>
> 15) " 'Yonkitime': October 3, 1981, My Father's Place, Roslyn, Long Island,
> New York", 'M M' (15:55.0 just the song). The length of the song's long,
> 'jazzy', improvised section of just Tom on guitar = 2:50.0.
>
>
>
> 16)** " 'Nighthawks At The Dance Hall': June 15, 1977, Daddy's Dance Hall,
> Copenhagen, Denmark", 'M M' (15:32.0 just the song). There is no long,
> 'jazzy', improvised section of 'M M' at Television shows.
>
>
>
> 17)** "June 7, 1977, L'Olympia, Paris, France-Better Sounding Version", 'M
> M'  (15:22.9 just the song). There is no long, 'jazzy', improvised section
> of 'M M' at Television shows.
>
>
>
> 18) "July 18, 1982, The Old Waldorf, San Francisco", 'M M' (15:11.1 just
the
> song). The length of the song's long, 'jazzy', improvised section of just
> Tom on guitar was not measured.
>
>
>
> 19)** " 'Live In Brazil': October 23, 2005, The TIM Festival, The Modern
Art
> Museum (MAM), Rio de Janeiro, Brazil-The DIME Version-DVD15". 'Swells'-like
> Instrumental Intro (1:28.1; but a 0.7 drop-out from 0:21.7 -
0:22.4)/Marquee
> Moon (16:30.5 just the song; however, last 1:20.0 is 'Swells'-redux. So, 'M
> M' only 15:10.5). There is no long, 'jazzy', improvised section of 'M M' at
> Television shows.
>
>
>
> 20)** " 'Television At 'Summerstage', June 16, 2007, Central Park, NYC-DAT
> ", [Nice mini-instrumental from 'Music For Film' (0:41.5); it's either
'They
> Caught The Ferry' or 'Emak Bakia' that segues into 'M M'.]  'M M' (15:49.1
> just the song, but only 15:07.6 without the 'Music For Film' intro-segment
> to 'M M'). There is no long, 'jazzy', improvised section of 'M M' at
> Television shows.
>
>
>
> Exact Lengths Of All Officially Released Studio Versions:
>
>
>
> Below are the exact times of all officially released studio versions of the
> song 'M M': a) vinyl 12" LP; b) vinyl 7" 45 rpm; c) vinyl 12" EP; d)
> re-issued vinyl; e) cd version; f) remastered, re-released cd versions; and
> finally g) others.
>
>
>
> Note 4: *Obviously, we must always distinguish between the 'Fades-Out'
> Version of 'M M' (e.g., the version released on Elektra records in February
> 1977), and the 'Non-Fades-Out' version released subsequently.
>
>
>
> Results:
>
>
>
> a)  Fades-Out Version:  vinyl 33.33 rpm LP of the album, Marquee Moon,
(USA)
> Elektra 7E-1098, 1977; and LP (UK) Elektra K52046, 1977; LP (Germany)
> Elektra ELK 52046, 1977; GEMA made in Germany by WEA Musik GMBH, a Warner
> Brothers Communication Company; and LP (Japan) Warner Pioneer P-10308E on
> the circular paper label on vinyl, 1977, but P-11070 W on front cover;
> Cassette (USA) Elektra 1977:  ALL are: 9:55.3.
>
>
>
> b)  Fades-Out Version: vinyl 7", 45 rpm, Single, (UK) Elektra K.12252,
1977:
> Marquee Moon (Part I) 'A' Side: 3:10.6 / Marquee Moon (Part II) 'B' Side:
> 6:43.7; Total: 9:54.3
>
>
>
> c)  Fades-Out Version: vinyl 12", 45 rpm, Single, EP (UK) Elektra K 12252
> (Special Limited Edition), 1977: Marquee Moon (Stereo) / Marquee Moon
> (Mono): 9:55.1 Stereo version; 9:55.1 Mono version.
>
>
>
> d)  Non-Fades-Out Version: LP (USA) 4 Men With Beards 4M501, 2003 (200
gram,
> virgin vinyl): 10:40.8
>
>
>
> e)  Non-Fades-Out Version: CD (USA) Elektra 1098-2, November, 1987;
>
> CD (Japan) WEA Music K.K. Elektra 20P2-2107 1987; CD (Germany)
> Elektra/Asylum/Warner 7559-60616-2 1987; The Best of Television & Tom
> Verlaine CD (Japan) East-West / WEA Records AMCY-2562 1998; CD (UK) Elektra
> 10982 1999:  ALL are: 10:37.5
>
>
>
> f)  Non-Fades-Out Version: CD (USA) Rhino / Elektra 72930, 2003,
Remastered,
> and reissued as a Digi-Pak CD with bonus tracks: 10:41.4
>
>
>
> g1)  Non-Fades-Out Version: CD (USA) Rhino / Elektra 72930, 2003,
> Remastered, and reissued as a Digi-Pak CD with bonus tracks: the Bonus
> Alternate Ver.: 10:44.9
>
>
>
> g2)  Non-Fades-Out Version: Reissued as a Replica-Mini-LP CD (USA) Rhino /
> Elektra R2 74804, 2008, But NOT Remastered: 9:55.3
>
>
>
> Technical Note 5:
>
> Because of the long, gradual fade-out of the Fades-Out Version(s), and the
> long reverberation time of the final crescendo of the Non-Fades-Out
> Version(s) (e.g., the Rhino / Elektra 72930, 2003, Remastered Non-Fades-Out
> Version ends with Verlaine's lead guitar's reverberation and Verlaine's
> sustained tinkling piano notes), it was necessary to make a special effort
> to determine exactly where/when the studio Version(s) of  'M M' actually
> ended. Again, see Part 4 below for the details of how this was accurately
> done.
>
>
>
> In 2003, Rhino reissued and remastered the cd Marquee Moon, USA, Rhino /
> Elektra 72930. Its remastered version of 'Marquee Moon' has the
> 'non-faded-out', guitar-crescendo-ending followed by repetitive, tinkling
> piano notes. The Rhino liner notes say the song-length is 10:47.  However,
> 10:47.3 is the actual length of the track which includes 0.3 sec. of
> 'lead-in' silence before the song begins and an additional 5.8 sec. of
> 'lead-out' silence after the song is completely over. Using the .wav file
of
> 'Marquee Moon' extracted from this Rhino remastered version, and playing it
> back with TotalRecorder (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Recorder ,
> or Note 5 in Part 4), Leo got a song-length of 10:41.4 (i.e., 10:41.7 - 0.3
> of the silent lead-in. This is a difference of -5.6 sec. from the Rhino
> liner notes' 10:47. Recall from above that all three non-remastered cd
> versions are 10:37.5, which is 3.9 sec. less than the remastered version!
>
>
>
> Here are details on the non-faded-out guitar-crescendo-ending version of
> 'Marquee Moon' on the 2003 Remastered cd of Marquee Moon: The .wav file of
> the track has 0.3 sec. of lead-in silence; so 0.3 sec. needs to be
> subtracted from any particular elapsed time of TotalRecorder. The
> guitar-crescendo aka a 'swell' occurs at 10:27.7 (i.e., at elapsed time
> 10:28.0 minus the 0.3 sec. silent lead-in). By 10:32.0 (i.e., at elapsed
> time 10:32.3 minus 0.3 sec.), the guitar crescendo has been slowly decaying
> for 4.3 sec. allowing the emergence of repeating and tinkling piano notes.
> Despite its decay, the guitar-crescendo continues to reverberate faintly,
> then ghostly until at 10:40.2 (i.e., at elapsed time 10:40.5 minus 0.3
> sec.), after a total of 12.5 sec., the guitar's reverberation can no longer
> be heard over the still tinkling piano. The piano, itself, has grown weaker
> and weaker until at 10:41.2 (i.e., at elapsed time 10:41.5 minus 0.3 sec.),
> after a total of 9.2 sec. of piano, there is total
>
> silence.
>
>
>
> g3) Non-Fades-Out Version: Non-Studio but an Official Verlaine release:
>
> Promo EP 12", 45 rpm (USA) IRS L33-17369 / IRS 7137, 1987, 'M M' from Live
> At The Town & Country Club, London, March 19, 1987:  10:32.6. From Keith's
> The Wonder:  "Unlike most 12" EPs (which are 45 rpm) this is 33.33 rpm;
> promotional copy only. Same musicians as on Flash Light LP except [this
> Live] 'Marquee Moon' has Jay Dee Daugherty on drums; [it] does not exist in
> any CD format."
>
>
>
> Note 6:  The bootleg version of "March 19, 1987, The Town And Country Club,
> London, England", after a speed-correction (slowed down), has a 'M M' of
> 15:03.4, just the song. Thus, Verlaine edited out over 4 minutes of his
> original live performance in creating the IRS Promo EP version.  His
> original, long (4:18), jazzy, improvised section of just Tom on guitar was
> what he edited-out.  I believe he did this: i) For audio quality, i.e., to
> be able to fit a his March 19, 1987 live version onto one-side of the vinyl
> promo EP without having to 'squish' the grooves too closely together
> (especially at  45 rpm); and ii) To make this live 'M M' more commercially
> appealing to the average listener/record buyer.
>
>
>
> Note 7:  Keith wrote about this bootleg on The Wonder: "In this concert,
> Verlaine relies mostly on material from Cover and Flash Light. Verlaine
> offers here some of his more off-the-wall (relatively speaking) songs.  In
> the studio, songs like 'Swim' and 'Dissolve-Reveal' encouraged Verlaine to
> use his voice as part of the sound in its own right rather than its focus.
> Judging how well this works live is complicated here by the thick, murky,
> boomy sound of this recording.  This recording is, however, well worth
> hearing, despite the dodgy sound quality.  In many ways, this is one of the
> more satisfying recorded Verlaine performances. Here's Tom Verlaine, sense
> of irony intact (check out the taped, doomy, howling-wind-and-bells
> taped-'Intro'), sounding confident, relaxed and, at times, almost
playful.".
>
>
............................................................................
> .........................................................
>
> This case, this case, this case that I ... I've been working on so long
...
> /
>
>   ... This case is ...  ... closed!
>
>
>
> Part 4 of 4 to follow.
>
>
............................................................................
> .........................................................
> --------------
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