Re: (TV) Here we go again :>) / Slippery / Qualify / I Overstated

[Rex Broome <rexbroome@gmail.com>]

In the end I decided that "guitar parts" had a third meaning: guitar
*components*.  So we're really talking about Tom lending Richard
tone-control knobs, or Richard letting Tom install some of his old pickups
in his Strat, etc.

There!

-Rex


On 12/8/05, Casey, Leo J <Leo.J.Casey@volpe.dot.gov> wrote:
>
> Very on Topic, but may be of interest to only a few:
>
> Mike Ehritz writes
> >>Is this true? I don't believe it.
>
> Keith wrote:
> >Nor do I, I didn't see and haven't heard any
> >evidence of it.
>
> That's because, I made it all up.  I actually only
> attended one Verlaine show in the 1980s (and I left
> that one early).
>
> I think we're right back were we started--but now
> instead of arguing about which parts/solos Richard
> and Tom actually played live, we're arguing about
> Ripp's and Tom's parts. I really didn't think I
> wanted to go through that all over again.
>
> But here goes. :>) First and most important (I'm
> pessimistic that anyone will but), I plead with you
> to *reread* (or at least glance at) at the 2
> paragraphs Rex wrote Tues. [a snippet: "....there
> could be two meanings to one guitarist playing the
> other's 'part ..."]. (I've copied and pasted
> both of his paragraphs at the end of this e-mail.]
>
> The gist of his post is how tricky and slippery all
> of this is, the many sources of potential confusion
> in determining who played what.  There's nothing
> magical or earthshaking about what Rex wrote, but
> IMHO, it's a necessary framework for any
> *meaningful* discussion of the question.
>
> So how's this as a restatement or qualification [or
> total recanting/cave-in?] of my original 'claim':
>
> At the shows I attended in the 1980s, in about
> 65-70% of the songs Tom would have Ripp play the
> ***main** parts. By that I mean, when they were
> both playing simultaneously or non-simultaneously
> (and a moderately long solo or a long solo was
> NOT occurring), Ripp, would *more often than not*
> be playing the main part, i.e., the part with the
> dominant/primary melody---the strongest element(s)
> that defines the song---and Tom would sing and play
> what, IMHO, would more accurately be described
> as the secondary part/riff.
>
> And some of this Ripp main/'dominant' stuff might
> even be loosely[?] categorized as a short/compact
> solo----analogous to the compact solos and riffs
> Tom puts all over his first 3 records, by double
> (or triple or quadrupling) tracking the guitar.
>
> Ripp exceptions [and my qualifications]:
> 'Penetration', 'Prove It', 'Glory' and, of
> course, MM.
>
> Moreover, whenever it was a song that did end
> with a long solo (or a long solo in the middle)
> Tom would do it.  ****But even in these cases,
> there were some exceptions: Best example
> (and my strongest piece of 'evidence' :>)
> Sometimes on 'Always', Ripp would take
> the song to it's finish by playing the solo
> that plays during the repeats of the lines:
>
> ...the best kept secret in town,
> the best kept secret in town ...
> the best kept secret in town ...
> the best kept secret in town ..
> ..Always...
> Always ....
> Always ...
> Always...
> Always..
>
>
> >My second question was, is this less known
> >because fewer boots of the Ripp-heavy shows
> >have circulated (maybe because they weren't as good or
> >essential and have therefore languished in obscurity)?
>
> It's too bad there doesn't exist any recordings of
> live performances of Verlaine or Television (except
> for the official "Live At The Old Waldorf", and the
> "Live At The Academy" releases; otherwise, I'd ask
> you to listen to the Verlaine shows at which he
> played 'Always'.  If you were able to listen to
> these you would hear (on some, not all) Ripp
> playing a solo at the end of the song.
> ***There's no way this could be Tom, the tone
> (and the tremolo[?]), and the signature sound
> of the guitar are all totally alien to anything
> we've ever heard Tom play.
>
> Other 'evidence in ascending order of strength
> (lower is stronger):
>
> a) Ms Secret X (unfortunately she's not
> available to testify);
>
> b) Richard Lloyd's recent e-mail (in the sense that
> it shows it's not impossible that what I'm claiming
> is true;
>
> c) My eyes [watching both guitarists' fingers in
> action, often from less than 10 feet away, my ears,
> and my perfect :>) recollections of the shows;
>
> d) The comments (and eyes and ears) of y musician
> friends---esp. the guitar players---who attended
> non-NYC shows with me;
>
> ****e) eht deirrac yawa sgnidrocer
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Rex wrote:
> One: part as in "role":  during this section Tom
> plays the lead "part" and Richard plays the rhythm
> "part".  Basically, Tom's playing some notes and RL
> is playing some chords.  Almost doesn't matter which
> notes Tom's playing or what voicings Richard's using
> as long as it's within the chord structure
> (and even that might be debateable).  Thus: if Tom
> took the solo on "See No Evil" he would be playing
> Richard's "part" but nobody would expect it to
> sound like Richard's solo on the album.
>
> Two: part as in "written riff or melody line", etc.
> Meaning that Tom would be specifically playing the
> notes originally or usually played by Richard
> during that portion of the song, or vice versa.
> Of course neither of them ever plays anything
> exactly the same.  Some parts are more like riffs
> or melodic figures, though, as on most of "Call
> Mr. Lee".  So if Richard played "deedly - dee
> dee - deee" and Tom answered with " ba dow da
> dow dow dowwww", they would be playing each
> other's parts (but both playing "lead" parts).
> You can see how slippery this gets.  If Richard
> then played the first "solo" it could sound
> different from Tom's without it being noticed;
> however,Richard's playout solo is so genetically
> similar to his "written" leads on the chorus that
> if Tom played it he would be obliged to not only
> play Richard's "part/role" (lead guitar) but also
> to incorporate some of the melodic content of
> Richard's "part/written riff/melody line".  And
> again,the slipperiness of the roles is one of
> the reasons we love this band.
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