(TV) Here we go again :>) / Slippery / Qualify / I Overstated

["Casey, Leo J" <Leo.J.Casey@Volpe.dot.gov>]

Very on Topic, but may be of interest to only a few:

Mike Ehritz writes
>>Is this true? I don't believe it.

Keith wrote:
>Nor do I, I didn't see and haven't heard any 
>evidence of it.

That's because, I made it all up.  I actually only 
attended one Verlaine show in the 1980s (and I left 
that one early).

I think we're right back were we started--but now 
instead of arguing about which parts/solos Richard 
and Tom actually played live, we're arguing about 
Ripp's and Tom's parts. I really didn't think I 
wanted to go through that all over again.  

But here goes. :>) First and most important (I'm 
pessimistic that anyone will but), I plead with you 
to *reread* (or at least glance at) at the 2 
paragraphs Rex wrote Tues. [a snippet: "....there 
could be two meanings to one guitarist playing the 
other's 'part ..."]. (I've copied and pasted
both of his paragraphs at the end of this e-mail.]

The gist of his post is how tricky and slippery all 
of this is, the many sources of potential confusion 
in determining who played what.  There's nothing 
magical or earthshaking about what Rex wrote, but 
IMHO, it's a necessary framework for any 
*meaningful* discussion of the question.

So how's this as a restatement or qualification [or
total recanting/cave-in?] of my original 'claim':  

At the shows I attended in the 1980s, in about 
65-70% of the songs Tom would have Ripp play the 
***main** parts. By that I mean, when they were 
both playing simultaneously or non-simultaneously 
(and a moderately long solo or a long solo was 
NOT occurring), Ripp, would *more often than not* 
be playing the main part, i.e., the part with the 
dominant/primary melody---the strongest element(s) 
that defines the song---and Tom would sing and play
what, IMHO, would more accurately be described 
as the secondary part/riff.  

And some of this Ripp main/'dominant' stuff might 
even be loosely[?] categorized as a short/compact 
solo----analogous to the compact solos and riffs 
Tom puts all over his first 3 records, by double 
(or triple or quadrupling) tracking the guitar.

Ripp exceptions [and my qualifications]: 
'Penetration', 'Prove It', 'Glory' and, of 
course, MM.
 
Moreover, whenever it was a song that did end 
with a long solo (or a long solo in the middle)
Tom would do it.  ****But even in these cases, 
there were some exceptions: Best example 
(and my strongest piece of 'evidence' :>)  
Sometimes on 'Always', Ripp would take 
the song to it's finish by playing the solo 
that plays during the repeats of the lines:

...the best kept secret in town, 
the best kept secret in town ...
the best kept secret in town ...
the best kept secret in town ..
..Always...
Always ....
Always ...
Always...
Always..


>My second question was, is this less known 
>because fewer boots of the Ripp-heavy shows 
>have circulated (maybe because they weren't as good or
>essential and have therefore languished in obscurity)?

It's too bad there doesn't exist any recordings of 
live performances of Verlaine or Television (except 
for the official "Live At The Old Waldorf", and the 
"Live At The Academy" releases; otherwise, I'd ask 
you to listen to the Verlaine shows at which he 
played 'Always'.  If you were able to listen to 
these you would hear (on some, not all) Ripp 
playing a solo at the end of the song. 
***There's no way this could be Tom, the tone 
(and the tremolo[?]), and the signature sound 
of the guitar are all totally alien to anything 
we've ever heard Tom play. 

Other 'evidence in ascending order of strength
(lower is stronger):

a) Ms Secret X (unfortunately she's not 
available to testify); 

b) Richard Lloyd's recent e-mail (in the sense that 
it shows it's not impossible that what I'm claiming 
is true; 

c) My eyes [watching both guitarists' fingers in 
action, often from less than 10 feet away, my ears, 
and my perfect :>) recollections of the shows; 

d) The comments (and eyes and ears) of y musician 
friends---esp. the guitar players---who attended 
non-NYC shows with me; 

****e) eht deirrac yawa sgnidrocer
----------------------------------------

Rex wrote:
One: part as in "role":  during this section Tom 
plays the lead "part" and Richard plays the rhythm 
"part".  Basically, Tom's playing some notes and RL
is playing some chords.  Almost doesn't matter which 
notes Tom's playing or what voicings Richard's using 
as long as it's within the chord structure
(and even that might be debateable).  Thus: if Tom 
took the solo on "See No Evil" he would be playing 
Richard's "part" but nobody would expect it to
sound like Richard's solo on the album.

Two: part as in "written riff or melody line", etc.  
Meaning that Tom would be specifically playing the 
notes originally or usually played by Richard
during that portion of the song, or vice versa.  
Of course neither of them ever plays anything 
exactly the same.  Some parts are more like riffs 
or melodic figures, though, as on most of "Call 
Mr. Lee".  So if Richard played "deedly - dee 
dee - deee" and Tom answered with " ba dow da 
dow dow dowwww", they would be playing each 
other's parts (but both playing "lead" parts).
You can see how slippery this gets.  If Richard 
then played the first "solo" it could sound 
different from Tom's without it being noticed; 
however,Richard's playout solo is so genetically 
similar to his "written" leads on the chorus that 
if Tom played it he would be obliged to not only 
play Richard's "part/role" (lead guitar) but also 
to incorporate some of the melodic content of 
Richard's "part/written riff/melody line".  And 
again,the slipperiness of the roles is one of 
the reasons we love this band.
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