(TV) "Listen To It This Way (The Lost Mix)" / Clearmountain?

["Casey, Leo J" <CaseyL@VOLPE.DOT.GOV>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry17306@aol.com [mailto:Henry17306@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:52 PM
To: tv@obbard.com
Subject: (TV) Tom Verlaine - "Listen To It This Way (The Lost Mix)"
>Hi MMer's & Brian, 
>I got the Lost Mix a few days ago and listened to it once so far and 
>it's pretty good.  >It's not radically different. But I'm a strong lover of
> Verlaine's first two albums so I feel that it's worth it.

>But it's too early for me to really distinquish and verbalize the 
>differences, in fact, I think it's near impossible and maybe that's
> why no one has really talk about this release in any detail.

>My advice is if the debut is very high on your list and you're 
>a completist and can afford it. BUY IT!

>If it's lower on your list or you're short on the cash, then have
>someone cdr it for you.
>Henry
-----
My *initial* impressions on TV mix----mostly technical stuff so far:
(but see also below for some comments of Philip)

I like it a great deal, although having played my Elektra version
10 bazillion times over the last 22 years, it's a little hard to get
used to/prefer TV's preferred mix.

What I notice is that I can hear many little details much 
more clearly, e.g., the maracas on one of the songs.  
I can also hear TV's stun[?] guitar embellishments on 
"Kingdom Come" much more clearly and *often*?. 
In fact, this leads me to wonder:  does this cd of TV 
acetate contain the original tracks but just "mixed" 
differently, or  does it also contain different versions 
(of some of the songs)?   For instance, I swear I can
 hear more stun[?] guitar-playing on "Kingdom Come" 
(to my ears it enters song 3 times instead of just 
once as on original) .  

But WHERE I *REALLY* notice a difference (compared to
the import cd or to the Elektra vinyl version, which are one
and the same):  this cd of the acetate mix sounds 
*slowed down a trifle* for all its songs [see e-mail below 
from Maurice off-List several weeks ago], and *especially
for "Breakin In My Heart"*.   As a result the pitch sounds 
a little lower, and thus more correct[?], which maybe was
an additional reason Verlaine preferred his acetate version
of album (in addition to Verlaine liking his mix).   

I'm 99.99% sure that both my turntable for vinyl and my
cd player for the Import cd of 1st solo TV, would not *BOTH* 
play the original 1st solo album too fast.  

I may have simply jumped to the idea that this version is louder
than the Elektra conclusion since in interviews in my paper archives
and elsewhere TV talks about how one of the reasons Elektra didn't 
like the "mix" he presented to them, was that it was too loud/hot or
 the acetate vinyl had been "cut" too hot/loud .  I don't have the 
equipment such as an oscilloscope that would allow me to do a 
definitive volume comparison (but I'll try a crude comparison of 
the two versions by seeing how differently their input signals 
register/impact the VU meters on my TEAC reel-to-reel and on
my Marantz cassette decks).

Question: if TV was so unhappy with the Elektra/Clearwater mix
then why did TV continue to use Bob Clearmountain on some 
of his later albums?

*Preliminary* conclusion[??]:  evidence that Elektra
vinyl (and Import cd) of 1st solo album were recorded from 
master tapes that were 'going/moving' a hair too fast 
(probably done deliberately[?] by Elektra/Clearmountain to
"sweeten" the overall sound). Maurice's listening (see below)
experience with the Elektra vinyl version tends to support this.  
		
			 Leo

Maurice said about 2 weeks ago:
"Leo
I've never had the chance to hear the acetate, so that isn't
the basis of the comparison.  What I did was much less 
aesthetic --as I'm learning "Souvenir" for the second tribute, 
I've been  playing along to the recording, and it was obvious 
that when I was tuned to A440, I was flat as compared to the
track. Rather than tune my guitar up to match the record, 
I recorded the song from vinyl onto the PowerBook, and
used ProTools to lower the pitch, adjusting it until it 
matched the guitar.  The difference was, IIRC, 24 cents.

This method surely has some problems: what if my 
turntable's out of calibration?  (It thinks it's ok, but
...maybe it's fast.) Or what if my guitar drifted out
of tune while I was playing it on these tests? 
It's usually pretty good about staying in, but obviously
 this isn't a scientific comparison.

I agree about the SF78 show--it always sounded sped-up
to me. I do like the speed of it, but the helium quality is
distracting.  I'm going to have to bring it in to PT, and try 
it both ways (slowing it down/changing the pitch, and just
changing the pitch without slowing it).
Hope this clarifies things.
Best, Maurice"

Philip said:
"Elektra's mix is superior. Verlaine may prefer 
his mix, but I don't see why; some of it is really
detrimental, like the nearly-mono sound of 
"Kingdom Come", or the pumped-up piano in 
"Souvenir from a Dream" (especially the ending). 
Actually, listening to some of his odd mixing choices
 reminded me of the interviews he gave when
ADVENTURE came out, talking about how he
and Fred Smith desperately wanted to "weird-up" 
the sound of the LP and were constantly trying their
 hands at studio wizardry. There might be some of that
aesthetic in Tom's mix of his debut, too.

Clearmountain really opened up the sound overall.

To my ears, "Grip of Love" also sounds
like it uses a different vocal (just listen to the infamous
"buckle my belt" line). But most of the mix sounds as
 if it uses the same performances, only some elements
are more or less prominent (or, like the maracas at the
 end of "Flash Lightning", completely omitted).

One other possibility is that the turntable (where the acetate
was copied the to CD-R) isn't playing at the right speed, either,
 but seeing as how Maurice's experiments indicate Elektra's
 TOM VERLAINE is sped-up, that probably isn't the cause.
 Also, remember, all of those alt. mixes from ADVENTURE that
have been circulating on tape for years also sound much slower,
which would mean whenever they were copied from acetate to tape
(or somewhere in the dubbing line) they had also been slowed down
... can Maurice run the same experiment on ADVENTURE?

If the TV mix is louder from on this acetate? I didn't notice.

--Philip


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