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Re: More on TV & Smith/Smith's schtick / RE: (TV) Patti w/ Tom show suggestion



What Russ (and Robin & Glenn) said.

On 29/12/2011 17:20, Russ wrote:
Thoroughly agree with Robin. It's no great sin to be pretentious....just a
great sin to be pretentious and stupid and wrong. Patti is none of those
things.
-Russ

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:01 AM, robin dunn<rdunnrn@yahoo.com>  wrote:

i've been a lifelong patti smith fan, and *i* think she's often
pretentious  -- has been from the beginning.  some of her free form stuff
is just intolerable.  that said, she has also achieved a lot.  and,
personality-wise, i don't think she is any less likeable (i'd say she's
more likeable) than this list's dueling heroes, verlaine and lloyd.  it's
all subjective...

i agree with phil that outside of horses (and maybe easter, and for me,
wave) she has not made really solid albums.  the last album, a covers
project, was just horrible.  i generally find some songs to love and other
stuff that is just not much to listen to.  you could say the same about
iggy, lou, and tom.

still, with all that criticism, i get more enjoyment from her music than i
do from most others.  and i would also say that even on a bad night -- and
she has them -- she is still a more interesting performer than most.

growing up, i took a tremendous amount of inspiration from patti.  as she
ages, i take inspiration in the fact that she continues to be herself --
gray hair, mustache, sagging skin and all.  as she said herself, "we
worship the flaw, the mole on the belly of an exquisite whore".  she stands
virtually alone in her generation as a woman in rock and roll, she made the
way for many others, and i honor that, and admire it, and always will.  and
she really did it by just being true to herself, not compromising.

i don't think men can generally appreciate what a boys club rock and roll
has traditionally been, and how little room there has been for women.
  patti challenged that, and she still challenges it when she goes out there
and is successful being herself, rather than trying to be a commodity (the
usual role of women in pop).  i think the boys club has changed
significantly, at least in the indie universe, but to whatever extent it
has, patti (with all her pretention) deserves mad props.  she's far from
perfect, but i love her.

r







--- On Wed, 12/28/11, Glenn Cooper<glennwaynecooper@gmail.com>  wrote:

From: Glenn Cooper<glennwaynecooper@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: More on TV&  Smith/Smith's schtick / RE: (TV) Patti w/ Tom
  show suggestion
To: tv@obbard.com
Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2011, 9:51 PM
As an aside: what does "pretentious"
mean? How do we separate pretention
from ambition? Was Dylan being pretentious when he made
rock's first double
album? Was Marquee Moon pretentious? Does one become
pretentious as soon as
one attempts to break any kind of new ground? What about
Coltrane's
more free-form explorations - pretentious?

I honestly don't know what it means when used in this
context.

Glenn C.



On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Phil Obbard<pobbard@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I am not a huge Smith fan... aside from HORSES, and
maybe EASTER every few
years, there's no album of hers I generally want to
hear end-to-end... but
I
have to say that the one time I saw her live (on a
double-bill with
Television
c. 2004), she was fantastic -- an electric performer
with a strong backing
band. I don't need to buy her new albums (last one I
got was GUNG HO,
which I
promptly got rid of) but I'd see her live again if the
opportunity arose,
no
question.

--Phil
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