Re: Re. (TV) Television

[Jesse Hochstadt <jesseh58@yahoo.com>]

I'm just catching up on the list, so forgive me for the delayed response on
 this topic. (Glad to see Dennis not gone, and hoping Jay is or will find h
is way back.) I agree with almost everything Rex writes below, and would ad
d a few points of my own.
- First, I don't think Television's influence in terms of how many bands ha
ve borrowed from their sound (or in terms of which band member's contributi
on were more borrowed from) is a terribly important critical criterion. Sur
ely being (nearly) inimitable is as or more important - it indicates just h
ow special the "magic" a band had is. That said, I can name at least one ex
cellent band not yet mentioned who took a fair amount of inspiration from T
elevision's two-guitar approach, and that's the recently reunited (yay!) Sl
eater-Kinney.

- About Tom's personality: I've got no experience with Tom personally, and 
just a little with Richard. But I suspect Tom is a difficult guy at some ti
mes and in some contexts, and perfectly nice in others - just like most hum
an beings. He shouldn't be labeled with a broad brush. And if we're going t
o give Richard some leeway in his behavior because he's bipolar, we should 
cut Tom some slack too - just because someone doesn't have a (known?) diagn
osable disorder doesn't mean they have their behavior entirely under contro
l. And while I agree as a fan that it's aggravating that Tom doesn't seem t
o want to produce much new music or records, it's not as if he _owes_ any o
f us anything.

- Just to add to what Rex said about Tom's solo material, I'd much rather s
ee a Tom Verlaine Band consisting of Tom, Jimmy, Billy, and Fred that playe
d both Television and Tom solo stuff than the current conformation that see
ms limited (by what exactly?) to Television and covers. It's not as if the 
three other guys are incapable of learning Tom's solo material! (Heck, they
've each played on some of it.) Perhaps it's a less commercial proposition,
 but if they can play unrecorded songs like "Persia," I see no reason that 
they can't play, say, "There's a Reason" or "At 4 A.M." (to name just two I
'd love to hear live). It would bring a freshness and perhaps a spontaneity
 that seems a bit lacking in recent performances. I never thought I'd pass 
up the chance to see Televison, but I skipped the recent New York shows in 
part because I felt like I knew what I'd be getting.

-- Jesse
 
      From: Rex Broome <rexbroome@gmail.com>
 To: Verlaine List <tv@obbard.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 2:55 PM
 Subject: Re: Re. (TV) Television
   
Well, as a longtime member of the list, I'll weigh in.

The reason I'm basically okay with the Rip Television is that I love Tom's
solo material, and I have always enjoyed Rip's contributions to his
records, which go back for years.  There's less of an ego battle betwe
en
Tom and Jimmy, so Jimmy plays in a more complementary style to Tom, happier
to take a back seat and add texture... it doesn't result in the fireworks
that Tom and Richard achieved, but it's still very symbiotic, sympathetic,
and to my ears, as someone who enjoys most of Tom's solo records and rates
some of them up there with the Television stuff, it's resulted in some
fine, fine music.  The ego battle between Tom and Richard probably is 
Tom's
fault, in my eyes, and that's a damned shame, but there it is.

I saw Television live with Richard twice, and Verlaine solo with Rip
twice.  I don't really rate either incarnation above the other.  
All of the
show were rife with transcendent moment interspersed with unnecessary
prickliness and petulance and (of course) tuning.  In many ways I enjo
yed
the solo shows more because it gave me the opportunity to hear songs that
are more obscure, but no less beloved to me, than the typical and by now
ancient Television oeuvre (bearing in mind that in reality almost all of it
is more than 30 years old now and "A Town Called Walker" is to all intents
and purposes just as much of an oldie as "Days").  And the live versio
ns of
those songs, as numerous tapes bear out, tend to wildly outclass the studio
versions which I already adored, '80s production warts and all.  Jimmy
shone at those shows and I felt as lucky to be there as I did to see
Television.  That's just me.

Richard's solo output has never excited me much, and I've tried.  His
playing on other people's records is another story.  It's thrilling to
 hear
him with Matthew Sweet, for example.  He's an excellent foil and a
fantastic guitarist, but I'm afraid I can't rate his songwriting that
highly.  Just my opinion.  Tom to me is a towering lyricist even 
on a weak
day.  Of course he's also frustratingly lazy in that department and ma
ybe
he's totally lost his muse these days.  I couldn't say.

So personality clashes resulted in Richard being out of Television and Rip,
with his long, and to my mind highly successful, collaboration with Tom is
the natural replacement.  So I'm okay with him being in Television.
However, I don't get that excited about the prospect of seeing the band
while they're in their "playing the hits" phase, because, yeah, Rip's
spending most of the set filling in for Richard's parts, and he's not
Richard.  So it's kind of meh for me.  I'll only really get excit
ed if
there's new material.  A new Television record that's up to the standa
rds
of the best of what Tom and Jimmy did together before... I'd love that.
And I'd love to see them tear it up live with Fred and Billy.  I alway
s
loved Tom and Jimmy doing stuff like "Souvenir from a Dream" or "Clear It
Away"... hearing them do "See No Evil" was nice, but no revelation.
Television isn't going to do Tom's solo stuff, so until they do something
where Jimmy has a real reason to be there, I can skip the shows, despite
being on the apparently slim side of the debate that approves of the new
lineup.

So in the end I guess I'm just as pissed at Tom as anyone else, but for a
different reason... the lazy mercurial bastard won't put out any new
material that gives Jimmy a reason to be there.  Meanwhile I'll always
 try
out Richard's stuff and hope that something sticks eventually, and hope
that he can get his shit together enough to do some more brilliant sideman
work for stronger artists, because that is, in my opinion, where he really
shines.

Just my opinion and hopefully not fuel for the fire.  Like a lot of yo
u,
the personalities don't matter as much as the music... or at least they
wouldn't if they didn't get in the way of the music.  Yeah, it's
frustrating.  What can you do?


Rex


On Dec 31, 2014 5:40 PM, "Glenn Cooper" <glennwaynecooper@gmail.com> wrote:

> My post from this morning didn't show up in my emails, but people did see
m
> to get it.
> Strange.
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On 1/01/2015 12:26 PM, Bob Beatty wrote:
>
>> Good news, Dennis is staying with the List!
>> [something's wrong with email to the list here today. My own posts today
>> ar
>> en't showing up in my Inbox, but other people must be receiving them as
>> Den
>> nis saw one, & I got his reply okay. And I seem to be receiving other
>> peopl
>> e's posts today okay - just not my own, for some odd reason].Happy New
>> Year
>> , all!
>>        From: Dennis D <dend@nyc.rr.com>
>>  To: tv@obbard.com
>>  Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 3:57 PM
>>  Subject: Re: Re. (TV) Television
>>    Thanks Bob, even though I did unsubscribe it didn't seem to
 take and
>> I will
>>  take that as a sign I should stay! :)
>>
>>
>> [wanting to weigh in on this "controversy,"  I earlier tried to sen
d t
>> his as a reply but it never showed up in my Inbox, so here's attempt #2.
>> ]:
>> Jay saying "Days" is the most influential Television song ever does seem
>> an
>> extravagant claim.Jay's only "evidence" he cites for this belief seems t
o
>> be he thinks REM's early sound is reminiscent of "Days."
>> A more reliable measure of influence might be to see what songs
>> Television-
>> admiring bands choose to cover. So, I checked out the fine covers
>> collectio
>> n Keith kindly assembled. Of that collection, it looks like LJJ gets the
>> mo
>> st cover treatments (5,) with MM, the one Leif suggests, a close second
>> wit
>> h 4. No other Television song has more than two covers there. And the tw
o
>> s
>> ongs Lloyd is co-credited with writing, "Days", & "Guiding Light" only g
et
>> one cover each. Also, my ears hear echoes of the song Marquee Moon
>> specific
>> ally in many different Sonic Youth songs.
>> "Days" may be my own fave song off Adventure 'cause I find it so uplifti
ng
>> musically, lyrically, & vocally, which means Tom too has a lot to do wit
h
>> m
>> aking it a memorable song. But that doesn't mean it's the most influenti
al
>> song, generally. There's an interview quote from Lloyd where he says the
>> mu
>> sical idea for "Days" began with Tom asking Richard if he could play Mr.
>> Ta
>> mborine Man in reverse (no doubt The Byrds' electric version). Maybe
>> "Days"
>> is Tom's & Richard's answer to Dylan's/Byrd's Mr. Tamborine man.
>> I'm in the camp preferring Lloyd's guitar playing to Ripp's. And I agree
>> wi
>> th Jay that Lloyd playing 1880 or So live (of which there's a fine Jools
>> Ho
>> lland TV version on yt), as but one example, compared to Ripp playing th
e
>> s
>> ame song, leaves Ripp sounding second best, to these ears. But if the
>> curre
>> nt lineup of the band came to my town I wouldn't hesitate to go see them
.
>> A
>> Lloyd-less Television is still, surely, much  better than no Televi
si
>> on at all.  Let's not forget Lloyd himself is on record as praising
 Ri
>> pp's abilities to play Loyd's guitar parts.
>> Jay seems to imply he also thinks Lloyd has a genius for composition whi
ch
>> Tom suppressed. But Lloyd's had every opportunity in his solo career to
>> com
>> pose & record what ever he wants to. If he has song writing genius, as J
ay
>> suggests, he's had lots of opportunity to demonstrate it, unhindered by
>> Tom
>> .
>> If people who've known Tom for decades, such as Dennis, Fred, Billy, Rip
p,
>> & Patti Smith  all seem to have gotten along with him well through 
the
>> years, it doesn't sound like Tom can be quite as unpleasant a person as 
Ja
>> y believes. I don't doubt there's some truth to assessments by Hell,
>> Lloyd,
>> & others that Tom has controlling, penny pinching, self-centered, etc. a
sp
>> ects to him - just as LOTS of other artists, & people in general, have.
>> But
>> to therefore summarize Tom's personality as "douchebag," as Jay (who pro
ba
>> bly doesn't even know Tom) seems to do is excessive. It doesn't seem an
>> app
>> ropriate comment from a supposed fan in a Television fan forum. Sounds
>> trol
>> l-ish, actually. Dennis, don't let Jay drive you away!
>> I like Lloyd (& his 13-part interview on youtube is excellent) but he
>> seems
>> to have his unpleasant sides, just as Tom does, although his bipolar dis
or
>> der no doubt contributes some to that. For instance, here's Hell (from h
is
>> autobiog.) talking about Lloyd:
>> QUOTE:  "But once another guitar player was added the power shifted
 to
>> Verlaine and he liked that. Lloyd was a stray dog following Verlaine
>> for his chance. He was a smart enough guitar player to recognize his d
>> ependence on Tom. Tom created all the guitar parts. Lloyd was a sycoph
>> ant who'd throw a tantrum and whine and pout up to the point where there
>> mi
>> ght really be a crisis and then revert to his default submission to Tom.
"
>> One reason Lloyd said he quit the band was 'cause Tom didn't want to
>> work/t
>> our much..But judging by the amount of touring the band's doing now, one
>> wo
>> nders if Tom's problem with touring before wasn't so much wanting to avo
id
>> the road but maybe wanting to avoid being on the road much with Richard
>> Llo
>> yd! Presumably, Tom gets along better with the current lineup of band
>> membe
>> rs than he did with Lloyd. Sadly, if Lloyd was still in the band,
>> Televisio
>> n shows might be much fewer & farther between!
>> I doubt Television ever could ever have attained semi-mass success.
>> Sometim
>> es talent & commercial success go together. But large talent doesn't
>> always
>> translate into huge popularity. Tom's singing voice & the band's sound w
as
>> perhaps destined, no matter what they did, for influential, & legendary,
 s
>> tatus, not mass appeal. -Bob
>>
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